Physicist: The original post is here.
The curvature of space alone has almost no effect on the movement of objects until they are moving really fast. With the exception of only the most extreme cases (black holes), space is very, very close to flat. For example, the total stretching of space due to the Earth amounts to less than 1cm. The precession of Mercury’s orbit is another example of the tiny effect of the curvature of space (and it is tiny). Literally, there’s a little more space near the Sun than there “should” be, and as a result the direction in which Mercury’s orbit is elliptical moves. It takes a little over 3 million years for it to go full circle.
In almost all cases the vast majority of an object’s movement is tied up in its forward movement through time. The curvature of spacetime (not just space) is responsible for gravity. Literally, near heavy objects, the “future direction” points slightly down. So anything that moves forward in time will find its trajectory pointing down slightly. This takes the form of downward acceleration. This acceleration (time pointing slightly down) is entirely responsible for the motion of the planets, and every other everyday experience of gravity.
In flat space traveling forward in time has no effect on your movement through space. In curved space (e.g., near a large blue mass) parallel lines can come together, and moving through time leads to movement downward.
It may seem a little confusing that, once you’re moving, the explanation doesn’t change and falling is still caused by movement through time. Well, there is some effect caused by spacial movement and the spacial part of the curvature, but these effects are almost completely overwhelmed by the effects from the time component of the velocity (much, much bigger).
This one was a really good definition.
Pleased to read you.
Cheers
Yoron.
I have been reading a lot about this topic and everybody seems to agree that time is curved. What I don’t understand then is why it doesn’t then become obvious that time MUST be circular. You cannot have a curve, no matter how miniscule, without it eventually becoming a circle. That is a fundamental rule of maths and physics. Therefore time is circular which therefore then becomes the simplest and tidiest explanation of the concept of infinity. Time must eventually come back upon itself and understanding life and the universe is really a matter of understanding how dimensions appear over repetitive circular time rather than linear time.
Peter Davy:
Graph x^2. You will see a curve that never forms a circle. Also, nothing else about what you said makes any sense. Luckily it doesn’t matter so have fun! : )
The Physicist: “In almost all cases the vast majority of an object’s movement is tied up in its forward movement through time.”
Exactly. Most visualizations don’t show the time dimension. The one below does:
Hi, im digressing slightly as im not sure where to post this question. The explanation of general relativity and the gravitational effects have often been compared to a bowling ball on a trampoline or a footbal on a blanket. Here is my question, if an object with vast density sits in space (like a bowling ball on a trampoline) thus bending spacetime toward it, does that mean if a particle passes this mass BENEATH it, it will NOT be attracted toward the mass?…….Furthermore, can space have an UPSIDE DOWN.
In order to be able to picture higher dimensional things, physicists frequently ignore one or two dimensions so that there are no more than three remaining dimensions (which is few enough to be pictured). In the bowling ball metaphor, the sheet is all of space. An object can’t pass above or beneath, because there is no above and beneath. For example, you can go anywhere on Earth, and move in any direction, and gravity will continue to work the same as always, because you’ll always be “on the sheet”.
Excellent explanation, thanks! I know it’s difficult to explain complex concepts to us non-specialists and I really appreciate when it’s done well.
In this post the claim is made that space-time is curved, and this is what creates gravity. It also says that the curvature is very tiny. Could the “tininess” of the curvature be an argument as to why gravity is so much weaker than the other forces?
Well of course the tininess of the curvature can explain why gravity is so weak! But of course, we have no idea as to why it’s so tiny
Gravity is just an ‘elevator going up’ effect. There is no need for abstract gravity fields and curved spacetimes.
http://www.themarginal.com/theory_of_everything.html
Read and think about it. Maybe there is something to be learned from this theory.
There are a few things I don’t understand about the curved space theory. First, the theory is represented by a ball on a trampoline, or other flexible surface. Supposedly, the ball causes the flexible surface to form a curve, which you can roll a penny into, and the penny is supposed to rotate. But, if you put a ball on a trampoline and you are in space, no curve will form because there is no gravity from the third dimension to pull the ball downwards into the trampoline. If the curved space theory is true, there must be a force in the fourth dimension to pull our planets, suns, moons, stars, ect ect… against the four dimensional surface our universe is on, which is a surface we cannot see. Why would a curve ever form if there is no “force” to make it form? Also, if the curved space theory is true, why do our planets rotate around the sun? Yes, a ball CAN rotate when it goes into a curve, but it could also just roll straight down into it. Correct me if I’m wrong.
@Ethan
It’s just a metaphor used to explain the idea. However, as you’ve seen, it’s not particularly good. There’s a post about it here and, even better, an xkcd here.
@Ethan. Not an expert here, but my understanding of the trampoline representation is that the surface of the trampoline represents all dimensions of space time and the mass of the bowling ball is curving it in all directions rather than a single downward force. You could also picture the trampoline surface rotating in all directions around the bowling ball while maintaining the same curvature. In short, mass curves space-time, creating orbital paths for other objects determined by their own mass, trajectory, and speed relative to the first object. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
In the documentary “Alert Einstein” History Channel,
http://youtu.be/KcXxHZssCh4
They said that light from stars moves outward from our expected “straight” path as it passes close to the sun as in the eclipse experiments that confirmed general relativity.
Why would in move outward from the sun?
thanks for the post, the better answer, the discussion, and the links… All very fun and informative…
BTW, penultimate sentence of the first paragraph of the better answer: it’s “than,” not “then.”
@Richard
Thanks kindly!
I’m curious to understand more, but limited by NOT being a physicist, and having to spend all my time reading medical books instead. The big bang theory vexes me somewhat. I appreciate that we humans are limited by are brains so there are concepts, such as time, which are very hard to get to grips with. I shouldnt therefore be too vexed by the notion that all the mass in the universe originated out of “nowhere”. I’m wondering though if this might be an illusion. If space and time are curved, and perhaps we dont understand the nature and degree of the curve, could this have created the illusion that all the galaxies seem to be expanding away from a single point?
I am wondering whether the universe might have been created from a series of big bangs. Perhaps, in an infinte universe, there are infinite black holes which can recylce energy. With an infinite number of black holes, all energy lost to space, must eventually be “mopped up”. I’m guessing that a black hole may eventually reach a critical mass when it will explode; could this be the “big bang”.
I also wonder whether our understanding of the age of the universe can explain the amount of heavy elements found, for example on earth. Given these can only be formed by large supernovas; could there have been enough of these during our perception of the age of the universe, to explain the amount of heavy elements of earth alone?
Would be grateful if anyone can find the time to put me straight on this; and apologise in advance for the need to have this explained in ways that a non-physicist can understand.
So does being in free fall count as an inertial reference frame?
@Anders
That’s exactly what an inertial reference frame is!
Time is dimension which we cant visualise. Trampoline example only explains how space-time curvature can be looked at i.e., it gives us best anology to understand the path of a body in spacetime.
You stand at a place for sometime. Your distance wont change w.r.t earth but still u feel time passing. So, dont understand that just space is curved. In trampoline example only space is curved.
A real understanding will be as follows.
Suppose a mass is moving in space with no other mass around it. It follows straight path in space and spacetime. Here you dont observe any difference between space and spacetime. there is change of distance and also time passing but path is linear.
Now suppose it starts approaching a heavier mass(compare b/w mass of earth and mass of sun for ease). According to general relativity, the path of mass approaching towards larger mass is no more straight line. As time passes it approaches near larger mass but would never travel in straight path but starts to follow a curved path and end up revolving larger mass. There is a chance of smaller mass to spiral around larger mass and take a hit with larger mass and also there is a chance smaller mass to follow a curved path and near larger mass and fly away. Because i comparing with mass of earth and sun i am asuming smaller mass revolving larger mass. So, here as time passes smaller mass takes a path of curve. So we call it as curvature of spacetime: path of smaller mass is curved as time passes.
But why would it follow a curved path instead of straight line is another explanation and its painstaking to understand.
Is it equally correct to say that the gravitational field creates curved spacetime? The potential of a gravitational field at radius R is a diluted speed of light squared ( Ve^2 = 2*G*M/R = (Rs/R)*c^2 ). It is the gravitational potential that bends the speed of light squared of the universe.
The explanation at the top of this page does not answer the question. The question, as I would rephrase it, would be, “Why does the future direction, near massive objects, point slightly downward?” This is the curvature the OP asked about. It does no good to say “it curves”, the question was: “Why does it curve?” Why does the future direction cause a curvature in spacetime near massive objects?
I m curious about this but have certain que.
1.if space time contract near heavy matter than near black hole any object should become way smaller than it is does that happens?
2.the wavelength is light should decrease
does all atoms become smaller there due to contraction of space between electron & nucleus
& if that happens than electromagnetic force should collapse atom???
with the trampoline illustration am guessing the curvature cuased by the trampoline will attract the marble ball straight into it.will you please explain what prevents the earth from moving straight into the sun
I have submitted my manuscript for peer review on anti-gravity as an alternative to special relativity as it applies to gravity. So don’t steal it. I postulate that anti-gravity originating from space-time is blocked to a variable by a massive object thus forming an imbalance in an otherwise even distribution of anti-gravity. The resulting effect is the perceived “pull” of gravity. I am not satisfied that special relativity explains why an object is accelerated toward a massive object by curved space-time. If Occam’s razor has ever applied, this is one example. My theory deserves serious analysis. Special relativity was developed in 1915. Since then we have discovered dark energy or the cosmological constant. I believe dark energy produces anti-gravity everywhere in the universe and massive objects block a portion of this anti-gravity creating and imbalance and thus a perceived force of gravity. Considering that I have never met anyone who can articulate the exact function of gravity according to Einstein, I like my theory, a lot.
“In almost all cases the vast majority of an object’s movement is tied up in its forward movement through time.”
How do you define time? The consensus among physicists is that time is “what a clock measures”. So it’s really just some process that unfolds at a certain rate, one we can use as a standard to compare to other moving things. And yes, the rate at which processes unfold varies in accordance with (for example) their proximity to a large mass (gravity well). Taking, then, the classic case of apple hanging from the tree: how can you say it is “moving forward through time”? In what sense? You can use an arrow for time in a way that is undifferentiated from one you might use for motion in a diagram, but that doesn’t mean they are even remotely analogous.
1. If gravity is the result of the bending of space time, why does it still work far beneath the earth’s surface or inside of a solid lead building?
2. Why was the proof of Einstein’s general theory of relativity showing the position of a star behind the sun not attributed to refraction of light rather than to the bending of space time?
I think all matter feeds on ether (that mythical liquid that the universe bathes in). Particles need ether in order to continue existing. When particles are close together, they compete for the ether that surrounds them. This causes vacuum between particles. The vaccuum is gravity. It sucks things together. Massive objects like the earth are an agglomeration of particles. Try to emagine the competition for sucking ether that occurs at earths core. This causes the gravity pressures that exists there. You and I bath in a constant flow of ether that goes towards the earths center. I wonder if there’s anything out there on this theory.
this theory leaves many dobts.. obviosly here are som errors. funtametaly ; i think; the concept of space time is an error , those are various realities. Newton’s theory of gravitatation might be rewritten; it don,t get into relativity of Einstien. as student these are my thought…
dont claime as true one.
can you tell me what is curvature of space time casued by uneven distribution of mass/energy
what is curvature? what i have understand is , curvature is a curve if you give force to (lets suppose) tight rubber sheet.then the deformation of of that sheet cause the curve .
ok the second thing is curvature of space time .
what is have read is space time is the combination of space and time. on earth we consider time by the rise and fall of sun and moon. how space and time can be connected together? time is relevant to gravity. if gravity is more time is slower. if gravity on earth increases the time speed decreases. but my question is how can we assume a curvature of space time what is this space time? and how space time is generated due to distribution of uneven mass/energy?
i am learning the topic of gravity there it is mentioned that gravity is caused by the curvature of spacetime caused by uneven distribution of mass. so i want to clearly understand this point to go on to the gravity topic
In my opinion, objects warp space because space is expanding in an accelarating inflation, creating so the “elevator” effect.
… so, if space were not expanding – or were no accelartion in its expansion – objects would not warp space, would not fall into each other, gravity would not exist.
In the majority of posts on this page people don’t seem to really grasp the concept of space time. As was said, large objects do not normally bend space to any large degree, they bend space time.
As per Newton’s gravitation law any two bodies(or more ) attracts each other and inversely proportional to square of distance between them.Newton’s law remarkably worked for day to day observations and explained very well Keplar’s laws and orbits of planets around the sun.However it could not certain observations e.g. orbit of Mercury . Also Newton’s law assumes that gravitational force affects bodies instantly. Eisenstein had doubt about this. When light from sun takes 8 minutes to reach Earth ,and as per Special theory of relativity nothing can travel faster that light,how it can affect instantly ? He gave explanation that gravitation is effect of mass of bodies on space and time (General theory of relativity) .The orbits created for planets due to effect of larger mass of sun on space and time . It also predicated that light will bend due to strong gravitation of larger stars(sun).This theory also explained very well all the orbits and bending of light also.
Why does the 2015 netflix show “The Physics of
Light” ep 2-S1E2- Light and Space: The Theory
of General Relativity episode 2 states:
Gravity is not a force that pulls it occurs
because Space bends caused by the earths mass
This says nothing about the time part of Space-time
Time being critical to objects falling as you do
If you can’t get it straight don’t say anything
Below is a letter I wrote to a reporter
I wrote this to Tom Siegfried.
tsiegfried@nasw.org
TOM: I SUSPECT YOU MAYBE INTERESTED IN THE DARK MATTER PROBLEM IN ASTROPHYSICS. WELL HERES THE ANSWER:
THEY CAN’T FIND IT BECAUSE IT DOESN’T EXIST
BUT THE ANSWER TO THE GRAVITATIONAL CHANGES EXIST.
SPACE ITSELF HAS A TEXTURE INFLENCED BY THE SUPERRMASSIVE BLACKHOLES AT THE CENTER OF EACH GALAXY WHICH IS QUANTIZED (sorry Einstein) SO THAT THE TEXTURE OF SPACE ITSELF CAUSES THE SIGMA OF GALAXIES TO BE FASTER THAN EXPECTED.
IN ADDITION ASSUMING THAT SPACE TEXTURE REALLY DOES EXIST AND ALLOWS FOR GRAVITY TO WORK
THEN THE DOUBLE HOLE EXPERIMENT IS SIMPLY NANOPARTICLES WHOSE NATURAL EXISTENCE IS IN A SPACE TEXTURE EXTREMELY CONDUCIVE TO EM WAVES UNTIL EXPERIMENTORS INTERVENE WHICH CHANGES SPACE TEXTURE AND THEY BECOME PARTICLES.. . THE LOCATION OF THE SPACE CHANGE ACCOUNTS FOR QUANTUM TUNNELING
FINALLY AS NASA IS CHECKING QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT FOR GRAVITY SHIELDING THUS , ACCOUNTING FOR FASTER THAN LIGHT CHANGES..
YOU GOT TO WONDER IF THE SPEED OF LIGHT IS SPACE TEXTURE SPECIFIC
GERRY SCALLY
Ask a mathematician, Ask a Physicist
Please write back Gerard Scally— jeliza3@gmail.com
Sorry if this too strange !
https://www.askamathematician.com/2010/12/q-why-does-curved-space-time-cause-gravity-a-better-answer/
Why does the 2015 netflix show “The Physics of
Light” ep 2-S1E2- Light and Space: The Theory
of General Relativity episode 2 state:
Gravity is not a force that pulls it occurs
because Space bends caused by the earths mass
This says nothing about the time part of Space-time
being critical to objects falling as you do
If you can’t get it straight don’t say anything
Please email that somebody got this
if not I will never use you again
Curved space is cool model but that does not mean curved space is real. Magnetic fields around black holes don’t follow “curved space”. I prefer the simple model of light being deflected by a gravitational object. Others say that light travels in a straight line and it is space that is curved. Magnetic field lines don’t think space is curved.
Bernie The full post says that it is not space stretching but TiME that causes gravity. Read the whole post
Did you get. My commuNicationwith Tom Siegfried from NASA
about my comments on accelaration and dark energy i would appreciate someone telling me why i am wrong.
Dear Larry: this’s. Reply is about the double hole exeriment, Dark Matter and how it may relate to gravity as defined by Einstein.
Einstein explained falling(newtons apple) as the curvature of space caused by earths gravitational field. No pulling by a gravitational force i.e. f=ma. Einstien did not agree with Newton. Furthermore this curvature of space I will call space texture.
IF you consider the double hole experiment where small particles start out as waves and when WATCHED by researchers become particles.
I say the watching(using light waves ) causes space around the nanoparticles to change texture the way gravity causes space texture to change instigating falling. This change caused the waves to be sseeeen as particles. They are still waves but in a different space texture when viewed in light.
Oh well what do you think?
Dear Gerard ,
The possible reason for your suggested behavior is as below:
” At this moment all the space in the universe exists whether we are able to visualize or imagine the same. The present known space will be the limited space that participates in the known ranges of time from big bang to the edge of visible universe. So by naming the present known space (S) with attribute of time say [S(t)] then if space is viewed as a fabric (with texture) the expansion of this fabric ( not accelerating ) can be into a region which then has to be named differently and not space and unless it is pre-existing it will have to be continuously created. In both cases the most recent edge of space will be identifiable by the time attribute since all intra object distances would have changed from their last locations. Though we can travel this space since all space is existing even after expansion we cannot reach the instance of time backwards after the next instance of space expansion. Double hole experiment results in interference patterns (texture) indicating such constant expansion of space(S) and since light speed is the barrier speed for traversing local time (t) barrier w.r.t. universal time (T) which is at the point of most recent expansion of space [S(T)] & therefore this behavior is exhibited only by EM sources (i.e. light, microware etc.) . The constant spread of microwave as recorded by WMAP is because we are measuring the microwave patterns using microwave sensors similar as light to viewers eye (sensor) in double hole experiment.” Awaiting any comments on the above view!!
Dear Joe Thomas :
I think you might appreciate these thoughts
Thank you for your work in the production of “The Microscopic Uniiverse”!
I have been studying the double hole experiment as presented and its recreation on the “International Space Station”. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jvO0P5-SMxk
Regarding the double holes experiment, possibly the curved/bent space on earth suggested by Einstein could be the reason that we either see an interference pattern or particles but not both together. However, the double hole experiment performed on the international space station shows both concurrently.
It might be suggested that when you are in Einstein’s bent space (why things fall) then a quantized situation exists accounting for the selective choice of matter(particles) or energy(waves).
Below is a copy of a letter written to Tom Siegfried.
tsiegfried@nasw.org
TOM: I SUSPECT YOU MAYBE INTERESTED IN THE DARK MATTER PROBLEM IN ASTROPHYSICS. WELL HERES THE ANSWER:
THEY CAN’T FIND IT BECAUSE IT DOESN’T EXIST
BUT THE ANSWER TO THE GRAVITATIONAL CHANGES EXIST.
SPACE ITSELF HAS A TEXTURE INFLENCED BY THE SUPERRMASSIVE BLACKHOLES AT THE CENTER OF EACH GALAXY WHICH IS QUANTIZED (sorry Einstein) SO THAT THE TEXTURE OF SPACE ITSELF CAUSES THE SIGMA OF GALAXIES TO BE FASTER THAN EXPECTED.
IN ADDITION ASSUMING THAT SPACE TEXTURE REALLY DOES EXIST AND ALLOWS FOR GRAVITY TO WORK
THEN THE DOUBLE HOLE EXPERIMENT IS SIMPLY NANOPARTICLES WHOSE NATURAL EXISTENCE IS IN A SPACE TEXTURE EXTREMELY CONDUCIVE TO EM WAVES UNTIL EXPERIMENTORS INTERVENE WHICH CHANGES SPACE TEXTURE AND THEY BECOME PARTICLES.. . THE LOCATION OF THE SPACE CHANGE ACCOUNTS FOR QUANTUM TUNNELING
Might you respond if this you receive this. Gerard. Scally, jeliza3@gmail.com
Dear Gerard,
Thank you for sharing your views and especially the video link. In response are the below thoughts;
The wave particle duality being inherent is clearly displayed , however the behaviour is not limited to EM wave function for light sources alone. A similar behaviour as in
Zeeman effect during stellar magnetic field measurements exhibit split lines similar to interference patterns and the magnetic force carrier is also shown to be photons without which Maxwell’s equations won’t hold good.
Considering that, not always do protons and electrons merge to form neutron and emit neutrinos (candidates for dark matter) and not all neutron stars are magnetars, someone can come up with a new force carrier for magnetic forces or else derive anti-magnetism theories for black holes (preferably quantised ) cos’ there must be a lot of neutrinos in there since the birth of our milky way forcing sigma of galaxies greater since the rate of collapse shall have to be regulated by the anti magnetism.
Also, I presume that the space texture proposed can be represented to be quantised over time function allowing a constant space expansion without acceleration.
Anticipating valuable response, if you may please ..
Joe:
I am going to go far out. A limb. In trying yo discover how Egyptian Hunter-gathers were able lift and exactly place 500,000 (30-100 ton) rocks , I have decide they needed help. So we need to find a way around special relativity.
Hence my ideas about space-texture which may account for the sigma speed increase based on supermassive black hole producing. Quantized gravity wave interference pattern along the perimeter distance of the. Galaxy. This same space texture change related to. Gravity wave interference may cause space texture channels where the speed of light or local space-time. Allows for almost instantaneous travel as in quantum entanglement
Sorry for the divergence
Gerard Scally
Hello Gerard,
The divergence is welcome!! however, as aware its not limited to a limb though .
Its an interesting model and I do like to subscribe to the intensity of the approach, but there are couple of areas that might get tossed over in addition to Spl relativity.
1. Galaxies do attract each other and with gravity waves facilitating quantum effects most of the photons of the merged galaxies might vanish and if so, we will have to introduce Time Dimension again & say the photons time travelled to remain as observable particles considering the massive speed and opposite vectors.
2. The Hawking Radiation Nobel Prize will be in question ( As such it has not been recorded but seems to be a valid theory except for the thermodynamics aspect; if dark matter is considered to be in existence in abundance within black holes)
An alternative approach that relates to dark energy ( vaccum energy) which can also be credited for facilitating entanglement along the abstract perimeters in the known space with the effects limited to the local space -time region. ( else WMAP is fake).
Awaiting your views on the above.
Joe
Joe:
Hello
I hope my ignorance is acceptable
My deire is to avoid special relativity not forget about it. If we assume that space texture is controlled by gravity wave interferreence patterns then as the patterns change so does relative space size therefore special relativity is space texture specific.
Heence the almost instantaneous travel times of quantum entanglement depends on relative size of the space. i.e one light year in this space is a milllion light years in that space. So as long as special relativity is space texture specific almost instantaneous travel depends on finding the right space.
So what do you think?
Dear Gerard,
I’m thinking just what you may also be. i.e. Who will do the math to form a theory!!
What you stated “one light year in this space is a million light years in that space” or its inverse is the Truth or bliss that we may not experience ever in this form of our existence; but I would surely subscribe to that idea and most of the concerns arising can be explained in a manner conducive to your proposed approach also.
The best part is that it elegantly resolves the missing particle anomaly during precise quantum or particle decay experiments . Though an entanglement experiment outside the edge of our galaxy’s gravitational field perimeter seems impossible or long way for now to counter your view and we dont know of any such validation even beyond our solar system. ( the communication lag form space probes are never proportional to their distance and at times go missing , or for that matter, even from our satellites the results need compensation )
Taking out the time dimension in favour of constant space expansion OR introducing dark energy to be the medium superimposing all space and its transformed energy levels defining all other things in existence allows for spatial textures based on the pattern of abstract transformation (note: This may also reintroduce the term spooky)
However, this remains my humble approach to align the observed & the imaginary.
Sincere Thanks for the active and thoughtful interactions.
Joe
Thank you for entertains my ideas.
Might you please read. ibcec.org. (4-or 5 pages)
This is who I really am. Any thoughts?
Gerry Scally
Hi Gerard,
Thanks for sharing the info. Wish you all success in your distinct endeavour.
Kindly check out this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwIJ-URG_P8
Pls chk out his other videos they may be interesting for your field of work also.
Joe
Joe:
Meryl is very interesting. His interest in DNA being the center for a magnetic Vortex is special. Considering that he claims it is scalar(longitudinal) . I’m particularly interested because Luc Montagnier(French HIV fame-Nobel laureate) claims that DNA can be transferred by everyday ELF waves. Could these be Meryl waves
Again thanks for writing. I’m trying to find waves to talk creative PHD’s into trying anything to CURE rather (then follow big pharma) just treat disease