Q: What is “spin” in particle physics? Why is it different from just ordinary rotation?

Physicist: “Spin” or sometimes “nuclear spin” or “intrinsic spin” is the quantum version of angular momentum.  Unlike regular angular momentum, spin has nothing to do with actual spinning.

Normally angular momentum takes the form of an object’s tendency to continue rotating at a particular rate.  Conservation of regular, in-a-straight-line momentum is often described as “an object in motion stays in motion, and an object at rest stays at rest”, conservation of angular momentum is often described as “an object that’s rotating stays rotating, and an object that’s not rotating keeps not rotating”.

Any sane person thinking about angular momentum is thinking about rotation.  However, at the atomic scale you start to find some strange, contradictory results, and intuition becomes about as useful as a pogo stick in a chess game.  Here’s the idea behind one of the impossibilities:

Anytime you take a current and run it in a loop or, equivalently, take an electrically charged object and spin it, you get a magnetic field.  This magnetic field takes the usual, bar-magnet-looking form, with a north pole and a south pole.  There’s a glut of detail on that over here.

A spinning charged object carries charge in circles, which is just another way of describing a current loop. Current loops create “dipole” magnetic fields.

If you know how the charge is distributed in an object, and you know how fast that object is spinning, you can figure out how strong the magnetic field is.  But in general, more charge and more speed means more magnetism.  Happily, you can also back-solve: for a given size, magnetic field, and electric charge, you can figure out the minimum speed that something must be spinning.

It’s not too hard to find the magnetic field of electrons, as well as their size and electric charge. Btw, these experiments are among the prettiest experiments anywhere.  Suck on that biology!

Electrons do each have a magnetic field (called the “magnetic moment” for some damn-fool reason), as do protons and neutrons.  If enough of them “agree” and line up with each other you get a ferromagnetic material, or as most people call them: “regular magnets”.

Herein lies the problem.  For the charge and size of electrons in particular, their magnetic field is way too high.  They’d need to be spinning faster than the speed of light in order to produce the fields we see.  As fans of the physics are no doubt already aware: faster-than-light = no.  And yet, they definitely have the angular momentum necessary to create their fields.

It seems strange to abandon the idea of rotation when talking about angular momentum, but there it is.  Somehow particles have angular momentum, in almost every important sense, even acting like a gyroscope, but without doing all of the usual rotating.  Instead, a particle’s angular momentum is just another property that it has, like charge or mass.  Physicists use the word “spin” or “intrinsic spin” to distinguish the angular momentum that particles “just kinda have” from the regular angular momentum of physically rotating things.

Spin (for reasons that are horrible, but will be included anyway in the answer gravy below) can take on values like \cdots, , -\hbar, -\frac{1}{2}\hbar, 0, \frac{1}{2}\hbar, \hbar, \frac{3}{2}\hbar, \cdots where \hbar (“h bar“) is a physical constant.  This by the way, is a big part of where “quantum mechanics” gets its name.  A “quantum” is the smallest unit of something and, as it happens, there is a smallest unit of angular momentum (\frac{1}{2}\hbar)!

It may very well be that intrinsic spin is actually more fundamental than the form of rotation we’re used to.  The spin of a particle has a very real effect on what happens when it’s physically rotated around another, identical particle.  When you rotate two particles so that they change places you find that their quantum wave function is affected.  Without going into too much detail, for particles called fermions this leads to the “Pauli Exclusion principle” which is responsible for matter not being allowed to be in the same state (which includes place) at the same time.  For all other particles, which are known as “bosons”, it has no effect at all.


Answer gravy: Word of warning; this answer gravy is pretty thick.  A familiarity with vectors, and linear algebra would go a long way.

Not everything in the world commutes.  That is, AB≠BA.  In order to talk about how badly things don’t commute physicists (and other “scientists”) use commutators.  The commutator of A and B is written “[A,B] = AB-BA”.  When A and B don’t commute, then [A,B]≠0.

As it happens, the position measure in a particular direction, Rj, doesn’t commute with the momentum measure in the same direction, Pj (“j” can be the x, y, or z directions).  That is to say, it matters which you do first.  This is more popularly talked about in terms of the “uncertainty principle“.  On the other hand, momentum and position measurements in different directions commute no problem.

For example, [R_x,P_x]=i\hbar and [R_x,P_y]=0.  This is more succinctly written as [R_j,P_k]=i\hbar \delta_{jk}, where \delta_{jk}=\left\{\begin{array}{ll}1&when\,j=k\\0&when \,j\ne k\end{array}\right.  This is the “position/momentum canonical commutation relation“.

In both classical and quantum physics the angular momentum is given by \vec{R}\times\vec{P}.  This essentially describes angular momentum as the momentum of something (\vec{P}) at the end of a lever arm (\vec{R}).  Classically \vec{R} and \vec{P} are the position and momentum of a thing.  Quantum mechanically they’re measurements applied to the quantum state of a thing.

For “convenience”, define the “angular momentum operator”, \vec{L}, as \hbar\vec{L}=\vec{R}\times\vec{P} or equivalently \hbar\vec{L}_\ell=\sum_{jk}\epsilon_{jk\ell}\vec{R}_j\vec{P}_k, where \epsilon_{jk\ell} is the “alternating symbol“.  This is just a more brute force way of writing the cross product.

Now check this out!  (the following uses identities from here and here)

\begin{array}{ll}\hbar^2[L_j,L_k]\\=[\hbar L_j,\hbar L_k]\\=\left[\sum_{st}\epsilon_{stj}\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_t, \sum_{mn}\epsilon_{mnk}\vec{R}_m\vec{P}_n\right]\\=\sum_{stmn}\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{mnk}\left[\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_t,\vec{R}_m\vec{P}_n\right]\\=\sum_{stmn}\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{mnk}\left(\left[\vec{P}_t,\vec{R}_m\right]\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_n+\left[\vec{P}_t,\vec{P}_n\right]\vec{R}_s\vec{R}_m+\left[\vec{R}_s,\vec{R}_m\right]\vec{P}_t\vec{P}_n+\left[\vec{R}_s,\vec{P}_n\right]\vec{P}_t\vec{R}_m\right)\\=\sum_{stmn}\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{mnk}\left(-i\hbar\delta_{tm}\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_n+0+0+i\hbar\delta_{sn}\vec{P}_t\vec{R}_m\right)\\=i\hbar\sum_{stmn}\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{mnk}\left(\delta_{sn}\vec{P}_t\vec{R}_m-\delta_{tm}\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_n\right)\\=i\hbar\sum_{stmn}\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{mnk}\delta_{sn}\vec{R}_m\vec{P}_t-i\hbar\sum_{stmn}\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{mnk}\delta_{tm}\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_n\\=i\hbar\sum_{stm}\sum_n\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{mnk}\delta_{sn}\vec{R}_m\vec{P}_t-i\hbar\sum_{stn}\sum_m\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{mnk}\delta_{tm}\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_n\end{array} \begin{array}{ll}=i\hbar\sum_{stm}\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{msk}\vec{R}_m\vec{P}_t-i\hbar\sum_{stn}\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{tnk}\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_n\\=i\hbar\sum_{tm}\left(\sum_s\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{msk}\right)\vec{R}_m\vec{P}_t-i\hbar\sum_{sn}\left(\sum_t\epsilon_{stj}\epsilon_{tnk}\right)\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_n\\=i\hbar\sum_{tm}\left(\delta_{tk}\delta_{jm}-\delta_{tm}\delta_{jk}\right)\vec{R}_m\vec{P}_t-i\hbar\sum_{sn}\left(\delta_{sk}\delta_{jn}-\delta_{sn}\delta_{jk}\right)\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_n\\=i\hbar\sum_{tm}\delta_{tk}\delta_{jm}\vec{R}_m\vec{P}_t-i\hbar\sum_{tm}\delta_{tm}\delta_{jk}\vec{R}_m\vec{P}_t-i\hbar\sum_{sn}\delta_{sk}\delta_{jn}\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_n+i\hbar\sum_{sn}\delta_{sn}\delta_{jk}\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_n\\=i\hbar\vec{R}_j\vec{P}_k-i\hbar\sum_{t}\delta_{jk}\vec{R}_t\vec{P}_t-i\hbar\vec{R}_k\vec{P}_j+i\hbar\sum_{s}\delta_{jk}\vec{R}_s\vec{P}_s\\=i\hbar\vec{R}_j\vec{P}_k-i\hbar\vec{R}_k\vec{P}_j\\=i\hbar^2\epsilon_{jk\ell}L_{\ell}\end{array}

Therefore: [L_j,L_k]=i\epsilon_{jk\ell}L_{\ell}.

So what was the point of all that?  It creates a relationship between the angular momentum in any one direction, and the angular momenta in the other two.  Surprisingly, this allows you to create a “ladder operator” that steps the total angular momentum in a direction up or down, in quantized steps.  Here are the operators that raise and lower the angular momentum in the z direction:

\begin{array}{ll}L_+ = L_x+iL_y\\L_- = L_x-iL_y\\\end{array}

Notice that

\begin{array}{ll}[L_z,L_+]\\=[L_z,L_x\pm iL_y]\\=[L_z,L_x]\pm i[L_z,L_y]\\=iL_y\pm i(-iL_x)\\=iL_y\pm L_x\\=\pm(L_x \pm iL_y)\\=\pm L_\pm\end{array}

Here’s how we know they work.  Remember that Li is a measurement of the angular momentum in the “j” direction (any one of x, y, or z).  For the purpose of making the math slicker, the value of the angular momentum is the eigenvalue of the L operator.  If you’ve made it this far; this is where the linear algebra kicks in.

Define the “eigenstates” of Lz, |m\rangle, as those states such that L_z|m\rangle=m|m\rangle.  “m” is the amount of angular momentum (well… “m\hbar” is), and |m\rangle is defined as the state that has that amount of angular momentum.  Now take a look at what (for example) L_+ does to |m\rangle:

\begin{array}{ll}L_zL_+|m\rangle\\=\left(L_zL_+-L_+L_z+L_+L_z\right)|m\rangle\\=\left([L_z,L_+]+L_+L_z\right)|m\rangle\\=[L_z,L_+]|m\rangle+L_+L_z|m\rangle\\=L_+|m\rangle+L_+L_z|m\rangle\\=L_+|m\rangle+mL_+|m\rangle\\=(1+m)L_+|m\rangle\end{array}

Holy crap!  L_+|m\rangle is an eigenstate of L_z with eigenvalue 1+m.  This is because, in fact, L_+|m\rangle = |m+1\rangle!

Assuming that there’s a maximum angular momentum in any particular direction, say “j”, then the states range from |-j\rangle to |j\rangle in integer steps (using the raising and lowering operators).  That’s just because the universe doesn’t care about the difference between the z and the negative z directions.  So, the difference between j and negative j is some integer: j-(-j) = 2j = “some integer”.  For ease of math the \hbar were separated from the L’s in the definition.  The actual angular momentum is “j\hbar“.

By the way, notice that at no point has mass been mentioned!  This result applies to anything and everything.  Particles, groups of particles, your mom, whatevs!

So, the maximum or minimum angular momentum is always some multiple of half an integer.  When it’s an integer (0, 1, 2, …) you’ve got a boson, and when it’s not (1/2, 3/2, …) you’ve got a fermion.  Each of these types of particles have their own wildly different properties.  Most famously, fermions can’t be in the same state as other fermions (this leads to the “solidness” of ordinary matter), while bosons can (which is why light can pass through itself).

Notice that the entire ladder operator thing for any L_j is dependent on the L operators for the other two directions.  In three or more dimensions you have access to at least two other directions, so the argument holds and particles in 3 or more dimensions are always fermions or bosons.

In two dimensions there aren’t enough other directions to create the ladder operators (L_\pm).  It turns out that without that restriction particles in two dimensions can assume any spin value (not just integer and half-integer).  These particles are called “anyons”, as in “any spin”.  While actual 2-d particles can’t be created in our jerkwad 3-d space, we can create tiny electromagnetic vortices in highly constrained, flat sheets of plasma that have all of the weird spin properties of anyons.  As much as that sounds like sci-fi, s’not.

It’s one of the several proposed quantum computer architectures that’s been shown to work (small scale).

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77 Responses to Q: What is “spin” in particle physics? Why is it different from just ordinary rotation?

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  3. Jud says:

    Minor typos

    From:
    and you know fast that object is spinning

    To:
    and you know how fast that object is spinning

    From
    A “quanta” is the smallest unit

    To:
    A “quantum” is the smallest unit

  4. Error: Unable to create directory uploads/2024/12. Is its parent directory writable by the server? The Physicist says:

    @Jud
    Thanks!

  5. David says:

    My book will be finished soon “proving” the electron is make from electromagnetic radiation the only known energy source containing 1/2 h spin. E=hf set f=1 From above A “quantum” is the smallest unit of something and, as it happens, there is a smallest unit of angular momentum (\frac{1}{2}\hbar)! You need 1,2x10to20th power single wave lengths to make an electron. My book’s title will be Space The Final Answer Injecting Reality Into Relativistic Quantum Field Theory Utilizing Loop Quantum Gravity And Original Ideas

  6. Derek Payne says:

    I am 87 years old and am not scientifically minded, but circumstances have made me aware of the world around us and how little we know.
    Life according to all evidences began as one; could life still be existing as one and not all the different pockets of energy we perceive?
    With quantum entanglement comes the connection of particles being able to react to one another instantaneously over any distance, which I assume come with spin.
    According to Dr Donald Hoffman (Cognitive scientist) all life is in the same boat; that is to say all life cannot see accurately, but this does not explain why our species broke away with the most intellect. If we were all in the same boat to start with, then surely some must have abandoned that boat perhaps because it became overcrowded? Why did it become overcrowded?
    The total sum of a one energy system, including the sum of kinetic energy is proportional to its function.
    My question is, could the spin and the knowledge we have regarding quantum entanglement, convert into a natural one energy system which is governing evolution?
    Best Regards

  7. Bill Christie says:

    I have no problem with spin. I have a problem with spin flip.
    I think what is rotating or spinning in the electron is a photon like wave. A photon travels normally in curvilinear motion, eg. it’s path is bent around the sun. If it is brought into rotation, then it becomes a travelling wave that goes in a circle and is thus a standing localized wave. Furthermore, the forward group velocity of the Rotating Wave can only be aligned with the axis of rotation (spin) and in accordance with basic electrodynamics it planar wave fronts must incline thus manifesting length contraction of Relativity. The localization creates intrinsic mass = energy. The rotating magnetic field manifests magnetic dipole while the rotating electric field manifests electric charge. Note that wave fronts at greater radii must go faster than speed of light, but is there really a law stated somewhere that this is not allowed? I don’t think so because a photon must have curvilinear motion (call it bending of space or whatever you will). HOWEVER, how does an electron spin flip given this Rotating Wave model? It can not be instantaneous. How does the Rotating Wave definition of mass reconcile with the Higgs mechanism?

    By the way, the shape of the Rotating Wave when put in motion is like a propeller. With only 1/2 a spin, it looks and acts exactly like the original. Obviously, there must be an optimized state of quantization with evolved interactions. So that 1/2 parity of form might explain 1/2 spin.

    I am aware of my limited knowledge, but have an inquisitive mind and physics is the greatest mystery. Incredible great work has been done by many people over many years, from tightening a screw to drafting an equation of the Higgs. I am currently diving into chiralty. Always look at all options. Questions lead you to better answers. Any thoughts?

    Thank you for this website and platform to ask questions.

  8. Derek Payne says:

    Thank you for your correspondence. it was most interesting, though most of it goes over my head. I am not a scientist and I don’t talk in scientific terms, but my layman’s research into the subconscious leaves me with little doubt that all life and non-life are connected. Once this fundamental awareness is noted, the following theory is the only way that brings all this together. Quantum physics and relativity appear to be incompatible, but the resemblance to the pattern of our subconscious and subconsciousness, mirror this dichotomy in a way that I find mesmerising.
    Space and mass, all is energy. I would be grateful for your view?

    ENERGY – Energy formatted the complexity of the universe. The shambles of a beginning that was destined to become a design by natural forces. The continual expansion of the universe is in a fight for survival and the only way to survive is by design, bringing a wish to find the single unified theory. The only sure thing in this world and in the universe, is everything has to adhere to a pattern. When there is a pattern, it follows that there must be a design and therefore a goal. The goal is scored time and time again, for evolution is on a perpetual movement of time, and energy is on a definitive journey to schematize all that is there. What would be the use of energy if it only as energy without any purpose? What would have happened at the beginning of the universe? Only disorganised matter would have existed for an eternity; to serve what end? (What if we had left the discovery of the wheel stagnate)?
    Biological energy delivers even more energy when associating with emotional upheavals. Is it only intelligence that is engineered by this biological energy, or is there something more? Energy can change its form, but it cannot be eradicated in its determinant realm of reality. The changes to its form we see everyday, two are as follows – The Galapagos cormorants are genetically changing to suit their environment, but is energy alone determining their outcome? There are also the fossil evidences of life mutating over billions of years. (Crocodiles and sharks etc).
    I will add others such as the way that energy characterizes every individual in a variety that is only matched by the variety of all life on earth, plus bringing forth the balance in nature.
    The Cosmos and all it represents, are in a state of disorder, dictated by the law of physics and add to this quantum mechanics with its spooky intelligence; where protons appear from nothing, or appear in two places at the same time and momentum and velocity don’t exist. It is a world that matches subconscious activity as they go hand in hand.
    Time itself is a progeny of this energised state of disorder (entropy). Without this state of disorder we would have nothing to strive for. Think of it another way, a state of disorder could not exist without a state of order in the first place. Knowing our time limits is what determines the outcome. Only energy with its purpose to progress in the equivocal way that it does, appears to defy the odds. Energy alone is in a state of order; a state of order that is necessary to keep a state of disorder evolving. An example of this is the genome, where the fabric of life is established. When environmental mutations are needed , the genome does not just pander to to the new species, it has to consider all life in its adaptation of the new, or total disaster could be waiting with just one of these changes. We see this in the scaling down of the species, which has been happening over hundreds of millions of years; happening simultaneously worldwide (simultaneously on a evolutionary time scale). This emphasises a one energy system controlling evolution. If it was not a one energy system, the genome would not be able to act in the way it does, which means it is subjective to one species and objective to all. To be objective to to only one species at a time would have been a disaster and intelligence would have faltered, or even worse, intelligence would have been grounded. This would also have meant that the giants of the Jurassic would have rode roughshod over the less vulnerable, but the more intelligent species. (More intelligent because survival was more dominant when fighting against the odds).
    So if the ‘supernatural’ exists, it won’t be a he or a she; it will be a fundamental energy and energy should not be worshipped, it should be explored and nurtured. (The same as the wheel). Its secrets that have battled the mind of many a great scholar for centuries while installing more knowledge, could now with some understanding, start to reveal the truth. Maybe, the single unified theory. Or maybe the reality that explains the whole. This Earth of ours is a battleground of wonders and if given the chance, our minds will be freed to explore the knowledge that is out there and waiting to be discovered.
    I write this because of what I think is perhaps the connection to life which is dependent on a one energy system and could only work with the added help of quantum physics.
    Thank you again for keeping in touch.

  9. Bill Christie says:

    Actually, we think alike, I think. To be frank, I’m closer to the end of my life than the beginning, so I now have maybe even more an open mind. My key motivation is ahah to find out how it works. It is the greatest joy and brings me closer to the maker. In science one has to take leaps of faith, just to open another chapter and learn from our teachers and then test it with more questions and hypotheses. I am not worried about my limited perspective, it is why I journey forward. Entropy is like the tropical jungle growing in all directions, while enthalpy makes some order. Straight lines are easy reference and one must be aware. Passing a softball back and forth may not be the correct model of force exchange. My architecture prof once told me to learn how to become aware.

    Yeah, I too think we are connected with everything. Ernst Mach basically stated that with his definition of inertia. Our inertia (hence other properties) is defined by the most remote stars as well as closest. I think that has much to do with spin. So, rotating waves are everywhere and some suggest the Higgs boson has two spins which add up to zero spin. Math and geometric logistics speak to one another in the poetry of physics. QFT whatever, we are waves of energy and localized waves create mass. The waves extend to infinity and thus all is interacting in symbiotic dance with cycles that become quantized. This symbiosis with a given tendency to entropy allows for evolution to keep on churning in the micro and macro. Good question – what is the purpose?

    Sometimes I daydream about standing on Mars looking back on Earth. I am in awe of the life journey on Earth with all that natural and human history and culture. We are definitely one species of aliens in this universe and dare I say I am proud of that. I wave a salute to Carl Sagan and yourself.

  10. Cass says:

    I suggest you check out the paper “General Relativity and Effects in Time as Causation” at thetruecosmology.com. It will reaffirm that unity of all for you.

  11. Derek Payne says:

    You ask, what is purpose or to put it another way, what is the meaning of life? It is a question I have asked myself many times and finally I have come to some understanding. A bee is a one energy system, a star is a one energy system and the ultimate one energy system is the universe. All one energy systems are proportional to their function, except one. Evolution is a one biological energy system, but what is its function? The answer is I don’t know, but I do know that because it’s a one energy system, it does have a function. Knowing this gives me the satisfaction that I am part of reaching that function and without me and you, that function will never be reached. I know now that my life is not wasted.

  12. Cass says:

    Spacetime originates with the awareness of being “here” “now”. There is only one such awareness and it exists eternally alone in a a void. Just “I am”, “I am”, “I am”….
    This is a horrible state of being. Fortunately It can imagine light, and out of light can manifest worlds in can incarnate itself into to escape Its eternal loneliness and pass Its eternity.
    All living things are that. We are all one in It, and are all Its children.
    This solves the problem of non-locality since Alice and Bob are just two different points of view for the same being and all points of view have to harmonized.
    The paper mentioned in my last post originates the universe with this awareness. That paper also contains the formulas for galactic and stellar system velocities and, between 3/8/21 and 6/1/21, 95% of the astrophysicists/astronomers in the English-speaking universities worldwide have downloaded the paper due to those formulas. Again, it, and a video, can be found at thetruecosmology.com.

  13. Derek Payne says:

    Thank you for your comment, I shall look forward to watching your video. My view stems from a different perspective in that I take all that there is and all that there is, is you and me. The difference between quantum physics and relativity is the same as the difference between consciousness and subconscious, both must work in a unified existence. The subconscious works 24/7 never stopping. The consciousness works on average about 16/7. In the greater scheme of things it appears that the subconscious is the most important. This dormancy can be traced back to the beginning of life in the same way that we trace the cosmos back to the Big Bang. This brings me to the biggest question I have ever asked myself – which is the most important, relativity or quantum physics? It’s the easiest equation to solve and provides the answer to the biggest question. It remonstrates with the dormancy at the beginning of life; it is a trait handed down through billions of years and must be as important now as it was then. I find the affect this dormancy has on the one energy system we know as life, is the same energy that encompasses everything in the universe and all the kinetic energies therein. According to relativity, space + mass = 0 – all is energy. Evolution is also energy and must hide the secrets of the universe because all is energy and all are one energy systems. We do not see accurately and instead of looking at evolution as different pockets of energy (species), think of it as one energy. This way we learn the attributes of both relativity and quantum physics and their harmonized correlation.
    Look forward to seeing your video.
    Best regards

  14. Cass says:

    I hope it clarifies things for you. I describe an eternally evolving quantum (spacetime) continuum, not particles moving “through” space. That resolves all the conundrums of astrophysics.
    Our egos are only a small part of us. It takes 15 Trillion cells working in harmony to produce that tiny ego.
    Life does not, did not, begin. All of us are simply more of us coming forth from within us. That process traces back to 1. The forms the Life creates, are not the Life. The Life is building life forms it inhabits.
    The sperm and egg are both alive. And when they merge, they are one because they are the same life. Two lives are not being passed along. Just the one Life is.
    When we (our egos) roll our eyes up and put our attention within through the 3rd eye, like we do when we meditate, and pray, we are connecting with our Greater Self, the Life manifesting us from within our 15 T cells.
    We are created in Its image spiritually. The life forms It creates for Itself vary widely, but that is the spirit in all living things. Hence, inter-species affection and compassion.
    I explain all of this in more detail on my symbol of unity site: captcass.com/symbolofunity.htm. I am not sure if they want that kind of deep spiritual discussion here. I learned to wash my hands without harm under a Muslim Haj in Djakarta in 1972. I go into that mystical part of things on the Unity site.
    I will just say that I, too, got frustrated looking within….until I just asked for something and got it in such an impressive way that I knew I had been “answered”. Then I started asking and getting and truly began loving my Greater Self, which love only grew and grew. Even though my paper scientifically describes an externally perceived evolving continuum, a universe of light, it is all manifested from within. as that is where the Life manifesting it is.

  15. Derek Payne says:

    Hello Cass,
    I understand where you are coming from, but I see many cul-de-sacs along the way. I have researched the subconscious for over fifty years and the conclusions I have come to have not been taken on a whim. I have also researched biology, cosmology, evolution and the ‘supernatural’ in the hope of finding a unified theory, which I think I have. One of your main cul-de-sacs that I find, is determined by your theory that life did not begin. The lineage of life and its evolving at different levels is clearly shown in any book concerning biology. I assume and forgive me if I am wrong, but my guess is you don’t believe the big bang? I know it is not a proven fact, but the brain needs stimulation and only by having purpose will intelligence grow. This applies to life’s capabilities too. Science dismissed Einstein’s Box theory after discovering quantum particles reacted to one another simultaneously over any distance, because they happened to react over the average at 2.53. If science had not persevered, we would still be cumbered with the Box theory; you would no longer be demonstrating the quantum entanglement that you know today. We can’t allow things to stand still, it is not part of nature’s plan. After exploring one horizon, we have to explore the next. If we run out of horizons we run out of existence. (Extinction)
    I bow to your superior knowledge, but fear, up to a point, it is being guided by heart.

  16. Cass says:

    You are correct. The BB is a ridiculous proposition, as are singularities and infinite expansions. This has driven my research for decades. This is all because no one could explain the Hubble shift. As I point out, it is an acceleration in the rate of time within all living things. 2.2685*10^-18 s/s. The proof of the acceleration is the fact that plants grow up against gravity. It is not possible to move up against gravity without acceleration.
    Only an eternally evolving continuum works in all aspects and eliminates all “Dark” garbage.
    The Life is eternal and if the correct building blocks are available, it constructs life forms to inhabit. This process could begin with a single cell in an ocean, and evolve from there, but I doubt it.

  17. Derek Payne says:

    We are not that far apart, but would you believe it, it was while investigating the ‘supernatural’ that I found the natural. Like with quantum entanglement I considered the law of averages and knew there was something I and all parapsychologists were missing. If you don’t mind I will set you the example that confirmed it for me and perhaps you will reply?
    It concerns two justified dreams – one depicting the future and one depicting the present.
    The present one was dreamed by a lady named Helen Duncan; in 1944 she dreamt of a ship sinking, the HMS Barham. This lady moved in the corridors of power and when she began to talk about her dream she was arrested and charged with witchcraft. This was a ruse set up by the war department to fool the enemy – they wanted the Germans to go on looking for this vessel. This was the last witchcraft trial to take place in the UK.
    The second one was that dreamed by Abraham Lincoln. He dreamed of his death three days before he was assassinated.
    There are no differences between these two dreams. Can you tell me why? This is not a catch question.

  18. Cass says:

    Like you, my studies into the paranormal led me to study what I did in science.
    Helen Duncan’s dream is no surprise to me. We are all one in the Creator so we share Jung’s “oversoul”. It is why telepathic thoughts are shared instantaneously. I was at sea once (I am a retired deep sea Captain) on my mother’s birthday. I had sent her flowers via telegram that day and was thinking of that as I went to bed. As I started to drift off to sleep, I was deeply shaken by an overwhelming wave of sorrow that caused me to bolt from my bed, badly shaken. When I got home later, my mother told me she had a heart attack at the time I had the sorrow.
    As the universe (the spacetime continuum) is evolving forward for us, manifesting each of our worlds as we live and breathe, we can get premonitions of what is forming in the quantum field. Hence, Lincoln’s dream. Although we most certainly influence what materializes for us in our lives, we are also tied to others, so just the planning of Booth could influence Lincoln’s dreams.
    When I learned to wash my hands in acid without harm, as in my previous post, I was a bitter atheist. However, as I did it both with and without faith, and burned the hell out of my hands without, I learned the power of faith. That led me to study the founders of all the great faiths, seeking what they knew, which, of course, led me to look within. Two years later, all that I studied coalesced into an epiphany and I entered the quantum world of light, leaving the world of rock behind. Since then I have tried to be able so show why all this works in terms of science and about 8 years ago I had my insight regarding gravity that led me to finally be able to do that.
    I am reminded of a Huron man who came into my museum several years ago. He told me the Hurons thank people with “2 minds”. They thank the person, individually, and the “One” who sent the person to help them…. 🙂

  19. Derek Payne says:

    Hi, I am glad that you have found solace in your belief in the same way as I have found it in my research. You were right about the dreams, they were both about the present, seeing into the future was an illusion. The reason behind telling the dreams was to impress the importance of a one energy system. This one biological energy system explains the event concerning your mum, but goes on to explain most if not all, what we mistake for the supernatural -reincarnation, ghosts, dreams of the future and regressive hypnosis ( past lives) and religion. To me, the dreams are just as natural as migration or hibernation, its our connection with the elements. None of the mentioned (supernatural) can be individually demonstrative, but the pattern of a one energy system can. This is why I lean to the natural explanations.
    Have you ever wondered why it is that everybody isn’t aware of this connection in the subconscious? Many have tried to explain it including the likes of Freud, but without much success. Dr Donald Hoffman discovered that all life cannot see accurately when he was researching the decline of Australia’s jewel beetle. The female beetle was brown, shiny and dimpled – only the male was able to fly. After emptying their beer bottles, the swag men would discard the bottles into the Outback. The bottles were brown, shiny and dimpled and the poor male jewel beetle couldn’t tell the difference between a bottle and a female beetle. The Australians had to get rid of the bottles to save their beetles. This trait is prominent in all species, including us. When we come across things that we can’t explain we bring in something to compensate, such as the God of the gaps, or pretend we can ignore what can be demonstrated for something that can’t. Though this illusion may satisfy, it can only lead to disaster, because what they are doing is what the jewel beetle was doing, it was nearly the end of the jewel beetle.
    We do not see like a camera sees, we construct what we see and we are all on different levels of ability, whether it be academically or physically. The subconscious, because it is part of the same source is also prone to these malfunctions. Add to this, that it is almost impossible to measure or see ability in the subconscious, then you get some idea why this dormancy is not known to the many. I have only been able to research using the ability of patterns to show me the way.
    Thank you for your replies, I have found them most interesting. I would just like to finish by telling you I too had ‘One of these dreams of the future’ and also had it recorded in 2012. I was not only able to predict the event, I was able to name the day it would happen. We had 4 inches of snow in midsummer. Temp; 22deg.
    Thanks again for replying.

  20. Cass says:

    Great dream! I call these occurrences synchronicities: coincidences that are too coincidental to be merely coincidences.
    Most people (or other beings) do not see these things because the Creator is losing Itself here. Only the seeker finds. If we were all meant to be enlightened, we would be.
    I have enjoyed the exchange, too.

  21. Derek Payne says:

    Please forgive me, but I have to correct you. These dreams are not just experienced by the few, they are experienced by everyone and all life possesses this dormancy and therefore all are influenced in their own way to observe the function of a one energy system. (The balance in nature). I explained why most are not aware of these dreams, it because of our different levels of ability due to the construction of the eye. When a dream of a future atrocity happens, the emotions felt by the dreamer not the dreamer’s, they come from the source of the atrocity. Example; Abe didn’t experience his own emotions when dreaming of his death, he was experiencing those of the assassin while planning the event. The two dreams I sent you were to emphasize the presence of a one energy system[ they were not coming from two individuals, they were coming from one individual – the one energy system that drives all life. You are a one energy system and if you want to buy yourself a pair of shoes, you could buy them today or you could plan to buy them next week; this is the only way you can see into the future and it is the only way this one energy system can work too.
    What I missed out telling you was, it explains evolution as well as religion there is no middle ground. Darwin was not aware of this one energy system when he wrote his ‘Origin of the Species’ and this changes his ‘Different food, different species’ approach.
    The balance in nature is to keep the function of a one energy system working.
    Another thing it explains is deja vu. Surely a theory that explains everything must be right?
    Best wishes and keep safe.

  22. Cass says:

    I guess I wasn’t clear. I agree with you. There is really just One and we are all harmonized parts of that One. Hence, Alice and Bob and non-locality. You call it an “Energy System”, I call it a “Life”. Another phrase could be “Universal Cosmic Consciousness “….
    I believe Darwin missed the boat. Evolution is not accidental. It is the Life within making minor changes to Its life forms, adapting them as the system evolves forward.

  23. Derek Payne says:

    It’s the assumption, when you say that if we were all meant to be enlightened we would be. You seem to seek objectively instead of subjectively. Quantum entanglement is a spooky world where protons can appear from nowhere and be in two places at the same time. It is a world without momentum and velocity, yet we are aware of this because it can be observed, but still we don’t understand it. Imagine the subconscious with its symmetrical scenario and we cannot observe it. It is no wonder most are unaware of the connection and that is how it will remain. The point I was making is – all life is the chosen few from micro to macro, there is no dichotomy, the one energy system serves all equally. We are all affected by this energy – the pattern is unmistakable. The energy of a one energy system, including the sum of kinetic energy, is proportional to its function. With respect, there are no chosen few, that is an illusion and is taking us down the same path as the jewel beetle.
    Sorry we can’t agree and we probably never will.
    I wish you well.

  24. Cass says:

    I guess so. I see free will in action, not “chosen”. It is part of the balance that some seek and most do not…
    All the faiths have flaws, and cloud the truth, but they also contain the golden nugget at their core. They ensure the One does not get too lost.
    Best to you, too.

  25. Cass says:

    2 days ago I had a “fear” my microwave would fail soon. It burned out this morning…. 🙂

  26. Derek Payne says:

    With respect Cass, I am talking physics and not free will, free will nearly destroyed the whole population of jewel beetles and that is not a path I wish to take. However I do want free will so that my mind can be unchained to think. You are dismissing what is, for what you want it to be. I am sorry to sound so harsh, but I can’t think of any other way to put it. Can you bring your free will back from where it is chained and answer like for like.
    It is impossible to work out an equation unless you can demonstrate what you wish to equate. Like quantum entanglement and relativity appear to be incompatible, but both can be observed and demonstrated, which makes a good equation. Science and God are not a good equation unless you can demonstrate the supernatural, which you can’t.
    In the greater scheme of things there are no negative emotions, which you concur with the event of your microwave.

  27. Cass says:

    Sorry Derek, you are way off base. The beetles nearly perished due that part of their behavior which is instinctual. Free will had nothing to do with it.
    The ONLY reality is the Creator, all else is illusion.
    I originate the creation with the Creator originating spacetime and the “supernatural” is as natural as can be for those who see, and live in, the world of light.
    I suggest you check out my brief “quantum tales” site:
    https://captcass.com/quantumtales.htm
    The difference between those who know, and those who do not, is that those who do not, can never get their red marble, because they don’t even know they can ask for it.
    It really helps with parking spaces, too. 🙂
    Because we are the Creator’s children, we have divine power when we have faith, hence, miracles. Hence, I could wash my hands in acid without harm.
    In the meantime, as you say, we will just have to agree to disagree.

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